英国网民评论中菲南海对峙 让人大跌眼镜

菲律宾声称它们最大的战舰在南中国海的一处有争议海域与中国海监船遭遇并对峙。当时此船正试图逮捕此海域的中国渔民。

菲律宾外交秘书，Albert Del Rosario传唤中国大使马克卿，以期望和平解决这一僵局。DelRosario的办公室声称黄岩岛乃“菲律宾领土不可分割的一部分”，菲律宾政府拥有主权。

黄岩岛位于菲律宾西北的三描礼士省。与中国存在主权争端。而且南沙群岛的众多岛屿也处于这样的有争议状态。

菲律宾外交事务发言人Raul Hernandez说发生在黄岩岛的僵持截止早晨仍未缓解。

外交部声称周日一架菲律宾海军监视飞机发现了8艘中国渔船在黄岩岛抛锚，刺激了菲律宾海军动员其最大的战舰德尔毕拉尔号，一艘最近由美国购入的二手退役军舰。

声明中还称，周二菲律宾战舰上的士兵登上中国渔船进行搜查，发现了大量非法捕获。包括珊瑚，蛤蜊，鲨鱼等。

两艘中国海监船编号为“海监75”和“海监84”随之出现并驶入在菲战舰与中国渔船之间。“从而阻止了对非法中国渔民的逮捕。”

周二晚Del Rosario对在马尼拉的中国大使马克卿提出抗议，并声称菲律宾海军将强行执行菲国法律。

中国驻马尼拉大使馆没有立刻做出回应。中国官方一直声称对黄岩岛拥有主权。

菲律宾也认为黄岩岛是渔业资源丰富海域。

去年菲律宾指控中国渔船侵犯在南海的菲领海，而中国政府照常否认了这一指控，声称对此类岛屿拥有不可质疑的主权。

南沙群岛目前中国，菲律宾，越南，文莱，马来西亚，台湾都声称拥有主权。这一系列贫瘠的岛屿，暗沙，珊瑚礁所在海域被认为有着丰富石油和天然气资源。其岛屿领土一直被认为可能是引发南亚武装冲突的导火线。

菲律宾的军事盟友美国，去年提供给菲律宾一艘翻新的海岸巡逻舰以加强菲海军力量。

华盛顿表示它不站在冲突的任何一方并呼吁和平解决。中方则认为美国干涉了此区域的事务。

自从上一次的中国与越南的冲突之后，南沙的局势陷入了僵持的状态。在1988年的那次冲突中，70名越南士兵被射杀。

面对中国令人畏惧的军事力量。菲律宾和越南开始抱成一团。除了在军事上保持一致，两国还同意将其海岸警卫和海洋警察结合以监视海上突发事件。比如海盗和非法入侵。

菲律宾海军副司令Alexander Pama于周二表示，菲律宾和越南的水兵将在他们驻军的南沙岛屿上开展足球和篮球比赛，以这样的新方式建立相互信任。

评论：

The ship the Philippine's are using is one of the ships the US just gave

to them last year. Unfortunately for the Philippines, it's an old piece of

crap from the 60s. Anyway the Chinese frequently use ships to harass other

countries and unless the Philippines can show it has some balls, the

Chinese are going to walk all over them.

菲律宾用的船是美国去年给他们的。很不巧，是一艘60年代的破铜烂铁。不过中国经常用船只

骚扰其他国家，除非菲律宾能拿出点胆色，否则中国人会一直踩在他们头上。

One thing is for sure though. This helps guarantee more arms sales for the

US over the next few years and eases the push for closer ties between the

US and asean area. Thanks China

不过有件事是肯定的。接下来的几年美国的军火又能在亚洲大卖，感谢中国。

Anyone know what kind of ship a Chinese intelligence ship is?

有谁知道中国的情报船是什么样船吗？

Wed 11 Apr 2012, 17:41

Does it really qualify as a functional warship? It's akin to India's

pre-historic aircraft carrier. Practically useless. Really highlights

America's commitment to it's ally, lol.

They've already started diplomacytising over this incident.

这真能算得上是一艘战船吗？就像印度的所谓航母一样。基本上没什么用。只是彰显美国对它

的盟友的承诺而已。

And the two Chinese surveillance vessels currently involved are these:

而中国的两艘船是这两艘

Just monitoring ships, designed to provide real-time surveillance of the

south china sea. Not armed. As lame as the phillippine ship is, it could

sink them with ease.

只是海洋监视船而已，用来在南海提供实时监控。没有武装。跟菲律宾的船一样无力，很容易击沉。

If the diplomatic effort fails, then China will send in frigates to

confront the 13-ship philippines 'navy' a.k.a Gregorio del Pilar and it's

entourage of floating gnomes.

如果外交手段失败 ，中国会派出驱逐舰碾压只有13艘船的菲律宾“海军”，德尔毕拉尔号和

它身边漂浮的一群小舢板。

Wed 11 Apr 2012, 21:06

The Chinese again. their ships should be torpedoed on site.

又是中国人。他们的船应该当场用鱼雷击沉。

Thu 12 Apr 2012, 01:52

China has regularly dismissed the protests, saying Beijing has

indisputable sovereignty over those areas on historical grounds.

And what are those? And do they make sence?

中国照常驳回了抗议，声称自古以来就拥有上述地区不可质疑的主权。这算哪门子理由？他们什么思维啊啊？

Thu 12 Apr 2012, 03:55

China has sent a 3rd vessel, also a civilian surveillance ship though.

中国又派出了第三艘船，又是民用海监船。

Thu 12 Apr 2012, 04:00

A gun is a gun.

A prehistoric club can still kill someone just as much as a modern one.

一支枪能打死人。一根棍子也能打死人，不管是古代的还是现代的。

Vs a fishing boat, this type of naval vessel is more than adequate for thejob.

对付渔船这种类型的军舰足够了。

Thu 12 Apr 2012, 04:33

The Filipino navy is indeed abysmal, and even the paltry Chinese navy

could quash them with ease. However there is no reason to Philippines

can't invest in a few modern vessels built either by their neighbours or a

Western power. I wouldn't want them to get a Type 45, but we could

certainly build them something of value I'm sure.

菲律宾海军太烂了，即使可怜的中国海军也能轻易打垮他们，但他们也不至于不能从邻国或西方引进一些先进的战舰啊。 我不是希望他们能得到我们的45型驱逐舰，但我们可以给他们点稍微有用点的先进装备。

Thu 12 Apr 2012, 04:51

The Chinese Navy is less than paltry, it is the d

ominant force in the Pacific.

They can sink a Type 45 from thousands of miles away.

Surface unannouced in the middle of USN wargames.

The yanks are terriffied of them and if your not, you should be.

Type 45 = not the right weapon system vs the Chinese.

We'll be sending subs to the China sea matey, not surface vessels.

A fisheries protection veseel has no need of being expensive and hightech.

Any old tub with a cannon or a machine gun will do. The cheaper the better.

中国海军不弱。可以说支配太平洋。在美国海军演习当中，他们能从1000英里外以导弹击沉45型。

美国佬害怕他们，如果你没有，那你应该学学美国人。

45型不是对付中国的最佳武器。

我们应当派遣潜艇进入中国海，而不是水面舰艇。

一艘保护渔民的船只不需要太高科技，也不需造价昂贵。

一只装上火炮和机枪的木盆也能做得到，越便宜的其实越好。

We used to send our high tech frigates after Spanish fishermen, and the

Spanish would just ram them.

So our frigates would have to run away.

A cheap old battle bus is what the job wants.

我们曾经派遣高级的驱逐舰来驱赶西班牙佬的渔民，而他们一看到就直接撞上来。

结果我们的驱逐舰就只好退避三舍。

一辆便宜的武装巴士才是合适的任务装备。

Thu 12 Apr 2012, 04:55

The 7th Fleet is just shaking in terror.

第七舰队在发抖呢。

Thu 12 Apr 2012, 05:10

If they sell these things to the North Koreans, the USN will be retreating

to Australia.

Wait a minute, it already is.

如果他们把这种东西卖给朝鲜，那美军就要撤退到澳大利亚去啦。等下，他们好像已经在澳大利亚了。

Thu 12 Apr 2012, 05:14

This has been went

over already... in detail.

The South China Sea: a Global Power Play.

从细节上重温一遍。南中国海，是一场世界大国的游戏的舞台。

Thu 12 Apr 2012, 05:14

You gotta love how the story makes no mention of China reverse engineering

American technology to reach the level of military sophistication it hastoday.

你很喜欢避而不谈中国是山寨美国科技才达到今天的军事装备水准这一事实吧？

Talk about onesided.

只是在片面地讨论。

Thu 12 Apr 2012, 05:23

The engineering was orignally Russian.

Russian styled subs, and Russian style Scud's with Russian styled Sunburn

guidance systems.

其实中国山寨的是俄罗斯。

俄罗斯风格的潜艇，俄罗斯风格的导弹，还有俄罗斯风格的导航系统。

@ Kfint.

It's been gone over in great detail. And the conclusions for the USN are

they can't defend themselves vs either Chinese subamarines or Chinese ABSM

and they would have to be idiots to bring any surface vessels in range of

them.

反复研究后得出结论：美军抵挡不了中国潜艇，也抵挡不了中国的DF21.他们会傻得把所有的舰船都带到上面两种武器的射程范围内。

The naval balance of power in the Pacific has changed.

太平洋的军力平衡已经打破了。

The USN is indeed the largets Navy in the world, but it's not the most

powerful in the pacific at this time.

Or at least in in terms of navy vs navy.

美国海军的确是世界上最大的，但现在已经不是最强的了。至少在纯海军对海军上不是了。

It's the most powerful in terms of force it can deploy in a non naval

engagement still. Aircraft carriers, marine landin

gs etc.

如果美军能展开多军种，比如航母，海军陆战队，那它才是称得上最强。

If we look at submarines on the other hand, their numbers and their

capabilities, we can see that China outguns the US in the pacific and has

the capability to deny them surface fleet operations completely.

我们看看中国的潜艇数量和水准，就能发现中国已经能完全压制美国的水面舰艇。

@ Thompson the Type 45 is an AA destroyer.

The Chinese don't use aircraft navally.

中国没有动用海军航空部队。

They use subs and ballistic missiles with thousands of miles range.

Al that is to them is target practise.

他们使用潜艇和拥有上千公里射程的弹道导弹。

Chinese subs are perfectly capable of surfacing in the middle of a naval

execise undetected. That means they are good enough to kill Us aircraft

cariers even when they are being hunted for. And even with low tech

weapons like torpedoes.

Good enough to do the job is good eneough to do the job.

中国潜艇在演习中能够很好地隐蔽。这意味着它们在反潜搜捕中也能击沉美军航母。哪怕是使用鱼雷这样的低技术武器。

Plus. They have some new ones. Ones which launch ABSM's. So these Chinese

subs, can attack surface vessels undetected from thousands of miles away

without fear of retalitation.

Now you may be saying British subs can do this too, and to some extent

they can, except that Tomohawk missiles can be shot down where as

ballistic missiles cannot, and critically, the Chinese have more subs in

the Pacific th

an anyone else.

Our one submarine we are sending looks abuit silly compared to their 50 or

60.

而且他们有了新的，能够发射反潜弹道导弹的型号。这说明那些中国潜艇能够从千里之外攻击水面敌舰而不用担心被报复打击。

你们现在可能要说英国也有这样的潜艇，某种程度上是可以，但不同的是，战斧导弹能够被击落而弹道导弹不能。更重要的是，中国在太平洋有着无可匹敌的潜艇数量。

我们派去的一艘潜艇在他们的5，60艘潜艇前就是个笑话。

Now obviously the strategic danger to he US is not a naval conflict with

the Chinese. That would just go nuclear.

The dangers here are that they arm their buddies North Korea with this

stuff.

现在对于美国的战略威胁明显不是跟中国的海军冲突，而是核威胁。

危险就在于他们把这种玩意用于武装他们的好伙伴朝鲜。

The other danger here is the war of manouvre.

If the US fleet leaves Taiwan, and the Chinese fleet enters into Taiwan,

then Taiwan is lost.

另一威胁则是战略谋略。

如果美国舰队离开台湾，则中国军队就会进入台湾，导致我们失去台湾。

So if the US has to make a drawdown in Taiwan either for economic reasons

or tactical reasons, an escalation in NK for example, the Chinese can

simply sail in and take the place over without a shot being fired.

所以如果美国减弱在台湾的影响，无论是处于经济还是战略的缘由，情况都会像朝鲜那样，中国将不费一枪一弹进入并取而代之。

Thu 12 Apr 2012, 05:28

I'm talking about the bigger picture. Chinese military might wouldn't be

possible without an economy behind it, an economy built massively on top

of leeched American innovation.

Only Nixon could go to China.

我说的是一幅更大的图景。中国军事如果没有经济的支持就不能长久，美国革新受经济的影响巨大。只有尼克松能去中国。

Thu 12 Apr 2012, 05:34

The bigger picture is the USN is being paid for by the Chinese.

When they stop lending you the money, your fleet will go the same way the

Soviet fleet went.

更大的图景就是美国海军是中国人在买单。

当他们不在借给你钱的时候，你的舰队会像苏联人的一样崩坏。

A fleet does have to have an economy behind it, and the economy behind

your is, to no small extent, theirs.

一支舰队背后需要经济的支持，网页传奇私服，但，你的背后是什么？是他们的经济。

Thu 12 Apr 2012, 05:35

1. What is your point? I have said TWICE that I would not wish to sell

them Type 45's.

2. A type 45 shoots down missiles... it's an air defence system!

3. It also has ASW capabilities in the form of Lynx/Merlin helicopters and

a sophisticated sonar.

4. The Chinese submarines are of very poor quality and many don't even

have a missile launch capability.

5. Their nuclear attack submarines are so poor quality that the crews are

exposed to very high levels of radiation.

6. You be crazy bra'. Anyone who uses the return key this much clearly has

issues!

1，你的观点是什么？我已经重复了，我不是要卖给他们45型。

2， 45型能击落导弹。。。它有一个防空系统。

3， 它当然也有反潜能力，只要搭载山猫/隼式直升机以及精密声纳系统。

4， 中国的潜艇质量其实很低，而且很多没有导弹潜射能力。

5， 他们的核潜艇质量也十分低下，其中的人员都暴露在高剂量的辐射之下。

Thu 12 Apr 2012, 05:46

My point is that you have underestimated them massively and are

overestimating the Ty

pe 45 massively.

我的观点是你太低估了中国人，而高估了45型。

It doesn't shoot down ballistic missiles. Nothing can. It shoots down slow

missiles (or at least hopoefully it does). You know Exocets and Tomohawks

etc. Not something traveling at mach 4.

They fly too fast and the Chinese ones can dodge and are stealthed.

它不可能打下弹道导弹。没有任何武器能。它只能击落低速导弹，比如飞鱼或者战斧。而对速度达到4马赫的那些无能为力。

那些飞行速度太快，而中国的弹道导弹能避开拦截。

Chinese subs have already proven themselves quite able to defeats NATO ASW.

中国潜艇已经提升了性能，能够击败北约的反潜系统。

To be of more than adequate quality vs the USN.

A Lynx and a Merlin doesn't have the range to detect a chinese sub from

2-4,000 km away which is the engagement range of their ABSM's.

超出了对美国海军的作战要求。

山猫或者隼式直升机无法探测2000到4000公里外的中国潜艇，后者能在这个范围内发射反潜弹道导弹。

The chinese have 63 submarines in service, 5 of them capable of launching

ballistic missiles, others capable of launching cruise missiles to attack

shipping from beyond detection range.

中国现有63艘潜艇服役中，其中5艘能发射弹道导弹。其余的能在探测范围外发射巡航导弹攻击船只。

We will be sending a sub, not a type 45. Note that well.

我们要派潜艇过去，而不是45型。看清楚了。

Thu 12 Apr 2012, 05:48

The PLA navy lacks the support ships to project unified fleets way out

into the depths of the pacific, but it is indeed the dominant power (in

tandem with it's naval aviation arm, china's amphibious

marine forces and

the pla airforce) in the south china sea.Any American fleet sailing into

that area in a hostile scenario or indeed anywhere near the mainland

wouldn't last very long.

Pla海军缺乏支援战舰来保护联合舰队进入深海。但它的确是南海的支配性力量。加上它的海军航空兵，两栖部队和空军。任何美军舰队进入此处战区或是任何靠近大陆架的水域都难以为继。

The prevailing plan in any serious engagement would be to send in

submarines carrying cruise missiles to strike at mainland assets, that

implies a total war scenario between the us and china, where china would

be blasting US bases and fleets with missiles of it's own e.g not likely.

普遍的战法应该是派遣携带巡航导弹的潜艇进入，袭击大陆目标。而这意味着美国与中国的全面战争。中国会用他的所有导弹轰击美军基地与舰队。

In THIS specific scenario (spratly's), the Us policy planners have

publicly stated that they don't support taking sides and that the region

should be open to all existing international shipping lanes, which they

would continue to be no matter who actually controlled the islands.

在这样的局势下，美国的决策者公开声明不站在任何一方，南海水域应向所有国家开放。不管谁实际控制那些岛屿。

It's very interesting, the media paints this as a china vs the rest

situation. It isn't. ALL parties have overlapping claims. Vietnam is just

as likely to go to war with the philippines, and ROC with vietnam, etc.

The Us is simply milking the situation, using it to sell some crappy

assets to weaker parties, and pester the stronger parties.

英国网民：两天可灭掉中国

评论：

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1、Skybird（Location: Germany 德国）：

It may be a reply to Obama's announcement to send 2500 special forces and instructors to Australia.